In an effort to anchor discord's content (yar) somehow, here's the actual conversation:
Ketiao - Today at 9:19 PM
So, here's an idea: online MOBA (Overwatch, etc.) players are digital ecologists #tldr
Ketiao wtf, you're just a total ecology nerd what is this Yes, I am, but bare with me
Ecology is the study of how organisms interact with each other and their environment. it's you going into a place/ecosystem, watching things, looking for patterns. It's learning what animals/plants etc. do what, where, and to who. and once you've got a solid understanding, deconstructing how that does--or does not--drive the balance of that ecosystem. What are the most important factors? Why? How? And once you undersand that, how can you influence the ecosystem (as in, restore it if it's going down the drain). And to figure all those out, we go in and manipulate stuff
Basically, it's watching the chaos of a bunch of stuff interacting, figuring out what's happening, and identifying what's most important to the system.
Which is the key to a lot of online multiplayer games.
cue overwatch; each hero is a species, each with it's own abilities = adaptations, and potential to help (mutualism), hurt (predation), debuff (parasitism), etc. people on their team or the opposite team. Thay can fight as a team (cooperative hunting) to push for an objective and target particular heroes to get rid of extremely important abilities (shields, healing). And they have to work with the environment--shields up in restrictions, hacking certain health packs, and so on
And the key to being successful at it all is knowing what the heroes on both teams do, and which heroes &or abilities you need to deconstruct/shut down
waves hands around i dunno, discuss(edited)
forumthread3
Macecurb - Today at 9:21 PM
Hmm... To extend the metaphor here a little bit, I think theorycrafting, rather than simply playing, is the practice of ecology in this case. Trying to understand the system (admittedly with the goal of 'defeating' it somehow) seems more like what you're describing.
That make sense?
Ketiao - Today at 9:22 PM
Yeah that actually makes a lot more sense
by theorycrafting you mean just like.. strategy? tactics? meta?
Macecurb - Today at 9:22 PM
Basically.
Like, if I try to go into diablo or wow or something, and I make a big crazy spreadsheet with a thousand input variables to try and figure out how to eke out an extra 2% dps, that's theorycrafting. Or even just screwing around with off-meta team compositions to see what works.
Ketiao - Today at 9:25 PM
Ahhhh I see. in that case yeah, absolutely
and then super-successful players who are better at said strategizing (whether thru theory crafting with spreadsheets and suchlike, or through intuiition from experience playing the game and acquiring knowledge)
Macecurb - Today at 9:26 PM
And usually people just end up copying them and they go back into it. A setup is the current meta, B beats A, so everyone starts playing B. C beats B, so eventually people start playing C, and on and on.
(Obviously meta stuff isn't the be-all and end-all of how games will go, but it does play into it)
Oriana - Today at 9:27 PM
I AM SUPER INTO IT
MightyHegemol - Today at 9:29 PM
I love it
Ketiao - Today at 9:30 PM
@mace right, yeah, like a self-equilibriating system
also, like; sometimes science gets it wrong, right, and then more folks come along and are like "hey. hey, you know how salt marshes are largely controlled by the nutrients they get? Well actually. turns out. there are these snails, right, and they don't just feed, they FARM FUNGUS IN THEIR FOOD, which actually causes huge changes in the system, so actually, uh, predation might be more important"
And everyone went ??!??!?!?!!?!?!? HWSJFNEF!??!?!?! but it was right, after a lot more scienceing
this... isn't exaclty what you meant, tho, I don't think anything changed in the case of that ecosystem. we just missed that detail first
postmodhat_large1
MightyHegemol - Today at 9:30 PM
How does that react to the fact that the teams are often identical, so you have 5-6 'species' competing with other members of their species?
Ketiao - Today at 9:30 PM
COMPETITION
like, literally, competition, in which members of the same species compete for resources; food, space, mates, etc.
MightyHegemol - Today at 9:31 PM
I mean, yes, but usually 6 species won't do collaborative hunting against themselves.
Ketiao - Today at 9:31 PM
but that's perhaps more of a stretch, since while synergisms and social behavior are very much A Thing in nature, usually 6 diff species don't go ham on a group of 6 others of themselves
Right, yeah
MightyHegemol - Today at 9:32 PM
unless if my understanding of ecology (admittedly 4 years old) is totally off.
Ketiao - Today at 9:32 PM
i mean, I guess we get into cannibalism there, which is actually more common than you'd think, but usually with one's own young so, that's a stretch as well
hmmm
vinicio - Today at 9:34 PM
THIS
THIS
COULD BE A HOOK TO AI?
(to our eventual AI vid)(edited)
like how AIs learn to play mobas
Macecurb - Today at 9:35 PM
(At this point we've only got like a dozen AI-related videos.)
vinicio - Today at 9:35 PM
could be seen as some sort of natural selection, right?
Oriana - Today at 9:35 PM
It's not the same species though
Ketiao - Today at 9:35 PM
well, here's one take. that many species don't tend to intentionally act in concert against a single cause
but often, they do anyway
this doesn't remove the problem of two individuals (players) of each species (heroes) fighting each other
but often in a system, right, you'll have multiple species independently creating similar effects on one thing
there's also predator-prey loops but THAT'S A BIG STRETCH so nvm
Oriana - Today at 9:35 PM
It's species with the same adaptations
Ketiao - Today at 9:36 PM
@vinicio mayhaps, but that's more in tthe sense that eoclogical models and neural network models are actually sometimes literally using the same math
Oriana - Today at 9:36 PM
So basically it works out as competition wherever two sufficiently similar species are fighting for a niche
Ketiao - Today at 9:36 PM
I don't know a ton on the front tbh
But yes! potential!
Macecurb - Today at 9:36 PM
Definitely something here.
Ketiao - Today at 9:37 PM
Wait Oriana, not folowing-- diff species with the same adaptations woudl be like, two different support characters duking it out
rather than a moira vs. a moira, specifically
vinicio - Today at 9:37 PM
not sure how this fits but HotS aka blizzards moba has a levelling system where a character can pick traits that change how they abilities behave
Ketiao - Today at 9:38 PM
wait oh god is overwatch a moba
vinicio - Today at 9:38 PM
so a character might trade a lot less atack speed for more damage per hit
it is kind of a moba, yes
Macecurb - Today at 9:38 PM
Arguably, yes.
vinicio - Today at 9:38 PM
hots is more "blizzards dota" tbh
Ketiao - Today at 9:38 PM
Just, more sprawling arenas than most mobsas, or?
Macecurb - Today at 9:38 PM
Eventually you get into semantics of what defines a moba, and... Enh?
Ketiao - Today at 9:39 PM
Oh, wait, mobs (as in PvE).
I have played like, 2 mobas so this is just me not knowing genre definitions. disregard(edited)
Macecurb - Today at 9:39 PM
Sadly I have yet to find a more concise definition of it than "I know it when I see it" or the one with the acronym that I won't copy in here.
Ketiao - Today at 9:40 PM
guess it doesn't really matter to the idea anyway, given theorycrafting aplies to p much any strategy heavy game
Macecurb - Today at 9:41 PM
... Single-unit action real-time-strategy, often with levelling elements? That does exclude overwatch, which is arguable, and Strife, which is definitely a moba.
Whatever, kind of irrelevant anyways.
vinicio - Today at 9:42 PM
yeah, its fine to treat overwatch as a moba
Macecurb - Today at 9:42 PM
I actually really like the 'hero shooter' label, to be honest.
It's clearly somewhere between an arena FPS and a moba, but not quite either.
(I'm going to stop talking about video games now.)
vinicio - Today at 9:44 PM
yes
yes
I always loved fps with a twist things
the first playstation, the last one I owned, had some good ones
Macecurb - Today at 9:45 PM
Such as?
vinicio - Today at 9:50 PM
oh, ps2* I was honestly confused when I couldn't find Darkwatch on the ps1 list
so, dark watch, area 51, etc
Macecurb - Today at 9:50 PM
Yeah, I was gonna say... Console shooters mostly came into their own post-goldeneye.
vinicio - Today at 9:50 PM
there was one with something cold on the name
Macecurb - Today at 9:51 PM
Cold fear?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_FearCold Fear
Cold Fear is a 2005 survival horror third-person shooter video game developed by Darkworks and published by Ubisoft for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Microsoft Windows. It was Ubisoft's first horror game, and Darkworks' second game, after Alone in the ...
vinicio - Today at 9:52 PM
nah, I don't think it was survival
it was something futuristic, you were a cyborg or something
trying to find googling
Macecurb - Today at 9:53 PM
Can't say I've heard of it offhand. Cold Winter? That's the only other one I can find.
vinicio - Today at 9:53 PM
project snowblind
it was a lot like crysis
store.steampowered.com/app/7010/Project_Snowblind/Steam
Project: Snowblind
Experience the dramatic intensity of the frontlines of a war through the eyes of the first of a new breed of super soldiers in this gritty and epic first-person action game.
Price
$5.99
Recommendations
145
Metacritic
76
Macecurb - Today at 9:53 PM
That'll do it.
vinicio - Today at 9:53 PM
it's on steam actually
Macecurb - Today at 9:54 PM
Oh, this was the deus ex multiplayer.... Thing.
vinicio - Today at 9:54 PM
hm? edit: oh, I didn't know it was related to deus ex(edited)
Macecurb - Today at 9:54 PM
Nothing, I'd heard about this but never really bothered to remember the name.
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:18 PM
btw, if theorycrafters are ecologists, then would these be true:
1) would esports casters be like David Attenborough then?
👍1
2) Would developing team compositions be functionally equivalent to creating a system in which no two 'species' are competing for the same niche?
2.b) Taking Overwatch for example, how would the Triple Tank meta be 'stable'
Ketiao - Today at 10:21 PM
1. yes
2. YESxINFINITY
2b. for the same reason that many spp appear to occupy an identical niche: niche partitioning. Basically, if 3 spp are using the same resources, they can a. some specialize on that food source (so instead of "i eat bugs" its, "i eat this one particular kind of bug, you eat a different one"). b. stagger the timing or location of their resource use (so, "i only eat a t night, you eat during the day" or "i ambush this prey, you brute force hunt it" or(edited)
Macecurb - Today at 10:21 PM
(Now I want to see David Attenborough cast a game of Dota or something)
Ketiao - Today at 10:21 PM
well there's a lot of other ors but that hopefully give the picture
So, the different tanks have different abilities, right; and even though they serve the same role---they appear to operate in the same niche--if they're using those abilities well, 2 (or I guess 3? i don't know this game well) could still be adding different benefit ('partitioning the niche')(edited)
Oh also, more particulat to the triple tnak meta; that niche might just be big enough for 3 tanks. Overwatch maps have a lot of different routes, right, so if the niche for a tank is to bulwark a chokepoint, if there are multiple or very large chokepoints multiple tanks would fit that. basically, the apparent niche is big
(wait, is that defense??? ok, maybe it's just to soak damage through a choke, still works)
Macecurb - Today at 10:28 PM
(If I remember correctly, defense is largely concerned with spamming into choke points and preventing enemies from getting past them. Tanks are largely concerned with being big unkillable walls of anger. There's... Some overlap in the ultimate goal.)
Ketiao - Today at 10:29 PM
Oh actually, I'm really glad you brought up niches specifically because overwatch doesn't let 2 of the same hero play on the same team, does it?
So it's like, forced niche theory
(thanks)
vinicio - Today at 10:30 PM
defense is area denial, making it hurts for the enemy to go somewhere, tanks are more damage soaking and taking a hit for the team(edited)
this is what you're saying, right, mace?
Macecurb - Today at 10:31 PM
Give or take. Bear in mind the official classifications can, at times, be a little wonky.
vinicio - Today at 10:31 PM
yeah, there is that, fuzzy categories and all
Ketiao - Today at 10:31 PM
it'd be boring--and not a complex system worthy of ecologizing--if they weren't
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:31 PM
Tanks are also space creation, disrupting the line so the dps can do work
Ketiao - Today at 10:31 PM
(or rather, it would be too easy to ecologize it)
^ ok so there you go, niche partitioning; I can't play tanks for shit, as some of us are now abundantly aware, but say you've got one tank that's hella good at being a damage sponge, but another's good at making that space for your offense
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:33 PM
And so you get a rein/hog combo, which is totally a legit thing.
makes sense
But having, say, rein and orisa doesn't work well because they do too much of the same thing (unless you are making the best pirate ship).(edited)
Ketiao - Today at 10:34 PM
oh man if/when this is an episode, the hook: an Attenborough impression of calmly describing "species" behaviors in an overwatch match
(basically, let's do 1.)
👌1
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:35 PM
(yes pls)
vinicio - Today at 10:35 PM
Ahahah, this is great(edited)
I love the defamiliarization aspect of it
Ketiao - Today at 10:36 PM
Ana x Reinhardt symbiosis
Sombra pulling cuckoo-esque behaviors with her hacks
Yas.
And shenanigans while waiting for a match as like, territorial displays or seomthing ridiculous
yiss
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:39 PM
And of course, Junkrat doing classic ambush predator stuff (esp. against sombra)
vinicio - Today at 10:41 PM
as a frequent sombra player, I'd like to say that I think his niche of choice is deplorable
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:46 PM
just think, he's so good at it that he can ambush people who actually float above the trap...
At that point, you've got to just be impressed more than angry
attackraccoon - Today at 10:48 PM
I often find that (for Overwatch anyway) the Offensive and Defensive categories aren't very useful.
Macecurb - Today at 10:48 PM
What, the mines? I imagine floating like Zenyatta does exerts some kind of pressure on the ground. And I wouldn't be surprised if junkrat rigs them to be super-sensitive.
And, yeah, they're... Suggestions, rather than actual gameplay things.
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:49 PM
Except mei. Don't be an attack mei
Macecurb - Today at 10:49 PM
You can totally play attack hanzo, though. It's just a little hard.
attackraccoon - Today at 10:50 PM
Exactly. But it's, like, actively misleading. Maybe helpful for completely new people, but not very useful besides that
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:50 PM
hell, France played attack bastion during the OW wold cup. And pushed all of junkertown in one go.
attackraccoon - Today at 10:50 PM
I play Junkrat offensively. I also play a pretty offensive Torb, which works really well for some maps.
Macecurb - Today at 10:51 PM
Nothing in particular stopping you from playing rambo-mercy. Wouldn't work very well, but it's possible.(edited)
attackraccoon - Today at 10:51 PM
I've played an attack Bastion before, yeah. I always think of them as DPS in my head, but I wonder if that's an actual useful distinction.
vinicio - Today at 10:51 PM
Mace, he was talking about the bear trap(edited)
Macecurb - Today at 10:51 PM
Oh. Magic?
vinicio - Today at 10:52 PM
Ahahah nice save
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:52 PM
zen is a silly monk
'An omnic of peace and harmony' proceeds to snipe literally everyone
attackraccoon - Today at 10:52 PM
Junkrat's mines don't trigger for allies or himself, either. (I think it's just a gameplay mechanic, but I don't want to ruin anyone's fun)
Macecurb - Today at 10:53 PM
Clearly he blieves in peace through superior firepower, or something.
attackraccoon - Today at 10:53 PM
Peace through orbs
Macecurb - Today at 10:53 PM
(Yeah, let's not over-analyze these things.)
But, this all actually reminds me of the way classes are categorize in tf2, to go back to the most tired comparison of all time. Offense/defense/support, and... Those categories are kinda completely useless?
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:54 PM
yep. It's all just dps (or theoretically pick, but after seeing flower's widow play, that distinction stopped existing)
vinicio - Today at 10:55 PM
what? no! c'mon, there are clear distinctions. Didn't the TF2 classes have ANYTHING in common in they playstyle/kit?(edited)
Ketiao - Today at 10:55 PM
(lol)
in ecology, we call things herbivores, but often herbivores STILL EAT OTHER ANIMALS opportunistcally
One might characterize a given spp as an ambush predator, but every now and then you might see a particularly bold individual who actively hunts
individual behaviors can bend characterizations
attackraccoon - Today at 10:55 PM
There's distinctions, but I think "offensive" and "defensive" aren't quite the right way to think about it.
Ketiao - Today at 10:56 PM
How natural selection -- or here, the game outcomes -- rewards or punishes that might determine how effective those outliers are iguess
vinicio - Today at 10:56 PM
YES THIS HERBIVORES EATING ANIMALS THING WAS SOMETHING THAT CREEPED ME OUT
Macecurb - Today at 10:56 PM
One alternative I've found useful is pick/power/support. Kills/area denial/everything else, basically.
vinicio - Today at 10:56 PM
when I learned about it
Ketiao - Today at 10:56 PM
(I've never seen "several people are typing" in the doobly before, this is exciting)(edited)
Macecurb - Today at 10:56 PM
(Of course I don't know how well that applies to overwatch, admittedly)
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:56 PM
(it totally does)
attackraccoon - Today at 10:56 PM
I think I agree with Ketiao. At a certain point, there's not really a point in trying to categorize every kind of behavior possible in a creature. As far as game characters go, we know what makes them different on an individual level.
vinicio - Today at 10:57 PM
well, yeah, but you still have categories
because they are useful at most levels we usually talk about(edited)
MightyHegemol - Today at 10:57 PM
(Just, sometimes there's an overlap. Like Widowmaker is both pick and power, given how there's a 'you cannot cross here' line where she can see)
Ketiao - Today at 10:57 PM
Well, it is somewhat useful to for the same reason it's useful to in ecology, right
there are patterns that are mostly upheld and mostly effective for a given species/hero
Macecurb - Today at 10:57 PM
(Yeah, totally.)
vinicio - Today at 10:57 PM
but yes, that herbivores eating other animals things is a great example not to get too focused on categories
attackraccoon - Today at 10:57 PM
When I play D. Va, I think in terms of "squishies = attack," "tanks," and "annoyances"
vinicio - Today at 10:58 PM
Funny thing is, sombra is designed to hunt down low health characters but I don't think I do that much? Makes more sense to help ganks and keep supports unhappy(edited)
attackraccoon - Today at 10:59 PM
Of course it's still useful to have categories. I mean, if I was making catagories for OW heroes, I would have DPS, Tanks, Support (sub category of healers), and whatever Sombra, Tracer, and Genji are.
