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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Oct 17, 2017 22:52:24 GMT
Hi.
I'm Romaji Milton Amulo.
I'm here to talk about Tulpas, a subject I have a lot of personal experience in.
I had a conversation about it on discord, which will be quoted in the next post
I'm really bad at starting forum posts
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vinico
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Post by vinico on Oct 17, 2017 22:55:12 GMT
Here is what we've already said about it over the discord: |
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Oct 17, 2017 22:58:35 GMT
Maybe that should have been filtered down.
So, I'm here to take questions about Tulpas, as well as some of the edge stuff, as well as Mindscapes (often used for storing the tulpas in the mind), because I'm a bit directionless
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Oct 18, 2017 17:49:27 GMT
I've started to come up with links to the Persona series, and my co producer knows more on the subject now, and I'll have a summary of our talks up here later
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Post by macecurb on Oct 18, 2017 20:19:25 GMT
As I somewhat mentioned in the Discord earlier: While I realize and appreciate that this topic is topic is yours in a meaningful way, it might benefit the script and idea project as a whole if you discussed these things in a more public manner. Partly so people can jump in and say something if they feel the need, and partly so no research gets duplicated by accident.
Either way, this does look like a promising topic! I hope to see more of it in the future.
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Oct 18, 2017 21:30:59 GMT
As I somewhat mentioned in the Discord earlier: While I realize and appreciate that this topic is topic is yours in a meaningful way, it might benefit the script and idea project as a whole if you discussed these things in a more public manner. Partly so people can jump in and say something if they feel the need, and partly so no research gets duplicated by accident. Either way, this does look like a promising topic! I hope to see more of it in the future. We're working on it right now |
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Post by pfbourassa on Apr 22, 2018 16:47:44 GMT
I think this could make an excellent episode. Starting with Romaji's personal experience, and giving enough background info to make it understandable.
We could relate it to "Virtual Machines" or multiple personality, but I don't think it needs a pop-culture hook. The topic is a fascinating "believing game" all on it's own.
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Romaji Forgot To Log In
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Post by Romaji Forgot To Log In on Apr 22, 2018 17:18:30 GMT
I think this could make an excellent episode. Starting with Romaji's personal experience, and giving enough background info to make it understandable. We could relate it to "Virtual Machines" or multiple personality, but I don't think it needs a pop-culture hook. The topic is a fascinating "believing game" all on it's own. Certainly. Also I'm going to post a link to my paper here soon |
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Apr 22, 2018 17:30:52 GMT
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vinico
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Post by vinico on Apr 28, 2018 4:30:43 GMT
Just read that. I think that the subject is really interesting and promising, from a 'believing game' kind of thing it kinda is it's own thing, right? 'Fake until you make it' made material as far as perception goes. It speaks to how possibly constraining our understanding of what to be human/sentient is.
As far as pop culture goes, I'm reminded of that dude from the walking dead that used the phone to talk with his dead wife which could kinda be conceived as tulpa-ing? Also there is Shallan, from Sanderson's Way of Kings: she kind of creates personalities that thought the story take up a mind of their own.
I could also see this being related to other sorts of mind-fuckery, like for example religions like candomblé where you have what is called the 'cavalo'/horse that is the shaman taking the spirit into his body. From mixing what conversations I've had about the subject with friends that practice it, as well as my own perspective on this kind of thing, it kinda feels like those people are able to channel a specific character that provides them different sorts of insights. The process is probably aided by lots of external cues like the chanting, wearing clothes that 'vibe' with that entity, burning specific spices, etc.
edit: also imaginary friends. sightings of slender man and other supernatural phenomenon/chaos magick's egregore
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Apr 28, 2018 18:18:33 GMT
Shallan seems like the closest link, where's a good summary of Sanderson's Way of Kings?
It's unfortunately not well known either.
Talking with the dead or thinking you are is spirit stuff, which isn't commonly thought as relating to tulpas at all.
Imaginary friends are the most common connection, as for seeing stuff like Slender man, that really doesn't fit tulpas at all.
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vinico
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Post by vinico on Apr 29, 2018 2:42:08 GMT
My thinking is that if you can train yourself to see something that isn't there and acts seemingly of it's own accord without conscious attention, it's within the realm of possibilities that someone could be something like that unwittingly. Granted, in all likelihood none of this has a high chance of getting that much air time, unless we're going for a Halloween episode or something, but since we're just debating the concept I thought I should bring it up. Also granted that this is a subject very close to your heart and I'm doing a fair bit of stretching with all of this, but that is kind of why I think the subject is interesting to start with. As for practices of african religions, I think that in this case they're less related for the visual aspect of tulpas -altho that also has strong implications for religious sightings- than to the brain partition thing. Like, we navigate relationships through a mental model of the person we're interacting with, right? When I go shopping gifts for my mother, or when I watch an interesting movie that reminded me of a friend, or when I'm considering if it's the right time to ask the SO to marry me. There is a part of my mind that thinks like I think those people think, and when the thought occurs to me I already know how they'd react. I suspect that this ability of the mind is fundamental to tulpas (, method acting, advertising, the conception of companies as entities, storytelling) and to religious possessions. I don't have a ton of experience with the latter, I've considered myself too skeptic to believe in that kind of thing for most of my life, but macumba/condomblé/umbanda are really big in Brazil, and I've got friends that go to the meetings/centers/terreiros and we talk about it. Also my grandma had one of this centers but that was when I was really young so it probably doesn't count. Anyway, from those experiences and some research I've come to think about this cavalo-espirito relationship as a mental trick, if you will, method acting. It's a more complex development of a mental model, based on the shared knowledge and personal experiences attached to the entity. With the help of intention, practice, a suggestive setting and the right cues, you shift your mental perspective into something sufficiently different than before for it to be noticeable or relevant. For example, the 'preto velho' (yes, old negro) represents a kind of quintessential elderly figure. He loves to tell tales about his time in captivity while smoking his pipe. When someone incorporates they lean more heavily on the stick and their back curves. Generally calm and soothing, they are also very stern and sometimes literally stomp their bare feet on the floor when making a strong point they think you are missing. They're considered guiding spirits and are frequently sought after for their teachings of humility, patience perseverance and the unique perspectives that they bring. I'm betting that if you decided to use tulpamancy techniques to create a 'preto velho' tulpa based on what I just said they'd act in a very similar way, and the difference between the two could be explained the same way the difference between two different 'preto velhos' is: they might be different spirits, or medium influence over the connection can only provide a subjective experience of the phenomena. shoutout to mcluhann (yes, I'm proud of how that phrase turned out)´You could conceivably also bring chaos magick to the table, which is defined by the wikipedia as a contemporary magical practice which emphasizes the pragmatic use of belief systems and the creation of new and unorthodox methods. Basically 'belief as a tool', if you can find a way to trick your body/mind into doing the thing you want it to, then it shouldn't matter whether it's true or not. Same with tulpas, right? Whatever kick you get out of it happens despite you being aware that it's not real. In fact. As I said before, I mostly think that those things are interesting because they serve as a jump off point for questions of what is to be human, and what even constitutes as real and how constraining our notion of reality might be. edit: Shallan seems like the closest link, where's a good summary of Sanderson's Way of Kings? It's unfortunately not well known either. Yeah, Shallan is not sufficiently well known to serve as a hook, but maybe it could be a fictional example that fits better than jekyll/hyde or whatever. Way of Kings is a ongoing series by Brandon Sanderson, who is known from his incredible magic systems and from his world building, specially in this series, as well as writing like it's his actual job. The series so far has 3 fairly big books and I highly recommend it. In case that wasn't intimidating enough, it's also part of the Cosmere, Sanderson's over-arching universe. (...) the magic systems within them, are often subtly connected and some characters appear across the various series. I love it all. In case you just want to know more about Shallan without getting into the books, here is some spoiler from the fan wiki:
After arriving at the Shattered Plains and encountering the Ghostbloods, Shallan takes on the identity of Veil. Shallan changes her appearance using Lightweaving to craft a new appearance for Veil. As Veil, Shallan appears as a slightly older darkeyed woman. Although Veil has the same height and build as Shallan, Veil has long, dark hair and an angular face with a scar across the chin.[10]
Veil's personality is daring and bold, being an accomplished con-artist and spy. She’s willing to scam other people but still needs people to be around. She often drinks and will sometimes drink horneater lager which is supposedly the strongest drink in all of Roshar. She rarely shows signs of being drunk.
After arriving in Urithriu, Shallan developed a third personality, Radiant. Radiant looks mostly like Shallan, but with a bigger bust. Radiant learns sword fighting with Adolin, and is a capable surgebinder. Radiant does not care at all about how other people think of her, and easily dismisses people as stupid. She is similar to Jasnah.
Shallan unfortunately, is sometimes not fully in control, and her other personalities will peak out without her knowing. This is especially common with Veil.
-- Now that I think about it, Sanderson has another work somewhat related to the subject: Legion (not part of the Cosmere, not related to the xman) which is about someone with multiple imaginary friends that perform various roles, like one time he needed to know the precise time so he received a call from someone that had access to a nuclear clock. Did I mention that they help him solve crimes? Through them he has access to abilities like handwriting analysis, cryptography, some foreign languages, etc. Apparently his mind is brilliant and can memorize stuff quite fast, but the way he accesses that information is through a different personality, which is not that strange. |
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Post by romajimiltonamulo on Apr 30, 2018 15:06:22 GMT
My thinking is that if you can train yourself to see something that isn't there and acts seemingly of it's own accord without conscious attention, it's within the realm of possibilities that someone could be something like that unwittingly. ... Also granted that this is a subject very close to your heart and I'm doing a fair bit of stretching with all of this, but that is kind of why I think the subject is interesting to start with. I mean, that's possible. I don't want to get into the whole business of questioning the existence of spirits. And to run well, you do have to stretch. Like, we navigate relationships through a mental model of the person we're interacting with, right? When I go shopping gifts for my mother, or when I watch an interesting movie that reminded me of a friend, or when I'm considering if it's the right time to ask the SO to marry me. There is a part of my mind that thinks like I think those people think, and when the thought occurs to me I already know how they'd react. So, the question here is, is this an epiphenomenon caused by looking over your knowledge of the person, or the process? I suspect that this ability of the mind is fundamental to tulpas (, method acting, advertising, the conception of companies as entities, storytelling) and to religious possessions... this cavalo-espirito relationship as a mental trick, if you will, method acting. It's a more complex development of a mental model, based on the shared knowledge and personal experiences attached to the entity. With the help of intention, practice, a suggestive setting and the right cues, you shift your mental perspective into something sufficiently different than before for it to be noticeable or relevant. "Is Method Acting Creating Another Person?" For example, the 'preto velho' (yes, old negro) represents a kind of quintessential elderly figure. ... They're considered guiding spirits and are frequently sought after for their teachings of humility, patience perseverance and the unique perspectives that they bring. I'm betting that if you decided to use tulpamancy techniques to create a 'preto velho' tulpa based on what I just said they'd act in a very similar way, and the difference between the two could be explained the same way the difference between two different 'preto velhos' is: they might be different spirits, or medium influence over the connection can only provide a subjective experience of the phenomena. shoutout to mcluhann (yes, I'm proud of how that phrase turned out)´This sounds like an experiment, find a tulpamancer and a spiritual person to both conjure a 'preto velho' and use some kind of channel that hides appearance and voice, and see if people can tell the difference. Like a turing test, but spirits vs tulpas. You could conceivably also bring chaos magick to the table, which is defined by the wikipedia as a contemporary magical practice which emphasizes the pragmatic use of belief systems and the creation of new and unorthodox methods. Basically 'belief as a tool', if you can find a way to trick your body/mind into doing the thing you want it to, then it shouldn't matter whether it's true or not. Same with tulpas, right? Whatever kick you get out of it happens despite you being aware that it's not real. In fact. As I said before, I mostly think that those things are interesting because they serve as a jump off point for questions of what is to be human, and what even constitutes as real and how constraining our notion of reality might be. What exactly is your definition of "real" here? and yes, indeed, it is that kind of jumping off point edit: Shallan seems like the closest link, where's a good summary of Sanderson's Way of Kings? It's unfortunately not well known either. Yeah, Shallan is not sufficiently well known to serve as a hook, but maybe it could be a fictional example that fits better than jekyll/hyde or whatever. Way of Kings is a ongoing series by Brandon Sanderson, who is known from his incredible magic systems and from his world building, specially in this series, as well as writing like it's his actual job. The series so far has 3 fairly big books and I highly recommend it. In case that wasn't intimidating enough, it's also part of the Cosmere, Sanderson's over-arching universe. (...) the magic systems within them, are often subtly connected and some characters appear across the various series. I love it all. --- Now that I think about it, Sanderson has another work somewhat related to the subject: Legion (not part of the Cosmere, not related to the xman) which is about someone with multiple imaginary friends that perform various roles, like one time he needed to know the precise time so he received a call from someone that had access to a nuclear clock. Did I mention that they help him solve crimes? Through them he has access to abilities like handwriting analysis, cryptography, some foreign languages, etc. Apparently his mind is brilliant and can memorize stuff quite fast, but the way he accesses that information is through a different personality, which is not that strange. Sanderson sounds like our fiction work guy, both of those show interesting tulpa systems. The one in Legion reminds me a lot of C.'s system. |
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