Post by vinico on Apr 8, 2018 0:31:16 GMT
I was reading an article called The Scientific Paper is Obsolete, which brings up the negative aspects of still using actual papers. That with the recent conversation we've had on Discord about the possibility of video-games being essays (full text bellow), and looking into Dramatica's Comic Book it got me thinking about the nature of progress. I think there might be an episode here somewhere, so I thought I'd share.
Here's a quote from that article that got me thinking about the nature of progress and the establishment of the technological status quo.
(Bret Viktor is an Apple Engineer that apparently also has a problem with coding via text)
So I've been thinking about all the things we keep using just because, well, people specialized in it. And that paved the way for more people to do that, since it was a proved viable option, and markets and ways of living formed out of it. Repeat. How do we know when those things are there just because of that inertia?
Then I realized that I'm going to be 30 next month and with that came some lessons about removing a fence before I know what it's keeping away. Like, you know, media being the message. Like excessive smart phone use causing ADHD like symptoms (according to this). While ideally you'd like to know beforehand how the house is like before moving into it, as Kierkegaard said, this sort of thing can only be understood backwards. We don't have a way to understand what is happening before it reaches significant mass, and then it's really hard to notice it because we are used to it.
This is starting to seem like a an old man shouting at clouds thing, it might be that I took a wrong turn somewhere, but I'll leave it here anyway
maybe someone can save it.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:26 PM
so, anyway, I've been thinking about video-games being an incredibly powerful media for storytelling, I feel like it would probably be defaulted to if it wasn't much more difficult than writing an essay or recording a video
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:26 PM
What do you mean by "defaulted to it"?
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:27 PM
and then the other day I was... relaxing and I thought "I wonder if you could develop a system to create video-game essays in some sort of streamlined/viable way"
Do any of you know if this is a thing people have done?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:27 PM
Like, if video games were as easy to make as, say, normal videos. People would default to making video games?(edited)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:28 PM
re: defaulted to:
Think kids learning about history. What is better, watching a video or going to a museum? Or reading a paper? Think kids in the future learning about history: Videogames.
not exclusively, mind you, I'm not that kind of crazy, but it makes sense, doesn't it?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:28 PM
All else being equal, more interactivity is better ?
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
For learning/storytelling, yeah, I think so
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
I'd argue that's kind of a given, on some level. In reality though, "All else" is rarely, if ever, equal.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
yeah, for sure
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:30 PM
Like... A video game that will last (on average) ten hours is a whole lot harder to make than a book that might last ten hours.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:31 PM
right, which is what I was trying to hand wave with futurium
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:32 PM
Same for film, or music, or musical/dancing theater... Effort put in is rarely equivalent across formats to entertainment value.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:33 PM
Well, yeah, but that changes with time. Couple of months ago I was watching to the videos of when my family first got it's camera and you can listen to me (nowadays adorably but then probably incredibly annoyingly (yyy)) asking for the camera, and sometimes you can see the tip of my fingers as I jumped to reach into the field of view
If I was born a couple of years later I would have a video camera and much better editing software (which I wouldn't be any good at that age, but you get my point)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
I think what medium is best really, really depends on the level of depth to which you're trying to go. On a gen ed level, games can be super cool. As we get more and more advanced, it's gonna be hard to talk about a thing through a game.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
Yeah!
Like... The invention of film didn't invalidate books. And video games didn't invalidate film.
quote1
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
like, small-level, but highly significant, variation is not gonna be able to be talked about in a game (using history since this is actually and literally something I do)
because of the way assets and textures work.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
what do you mean by variation?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
^
IdeaBOT - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
Macecurb
Like... The invention of film didn't invalidate books. And video games didn't invalidate film.
#lounge-1 of Idea Project
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:36 PM
That's not what I'm trying to say, tho
I'm just saying that now more people are making videos to each other than they are writing letters(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:36 PM
So, like, an analysis of types of crosses carved into Irish cave walls... doesn't work in a game. That's just too nuanced.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:37 PM
How is it taught nowadays? (jesus, I hate those words)(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:37 PM
I would actually argue against that. Have you heard at all of Assassin's Creed Origins Discovery Mode?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:38 PM
Yes. but. Every single building with writing on it has the same writing on it.
because there is a 'writing' texture(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:39 PM
But. And I would truly argue this is meaningful. There is very little stopping the programmers from displaying different, varying time periods of the (in-game) pyramids.
They chose to display a certain time period of the pyramids, yes.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:39 PM
Which is what they would do if the point was actually teaching, instead of, you know, making more money with as little as possible(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
yeah, while the text is actually Middle Egyptian, that text isn't going to apply everywhere. And unless you're custom texturing every object that's inevitable.
And they fudge distances and materials somewhat regularly in AC: Origins to make the game playable.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
I don't think you're using enough futurium in your reasoning, Heg
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
As someone who once tried to reenact European History in Civilization VI, I think it's definitely plausible to teach certain subjects through video games.
That being said, it would require dedication and detailed work.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
i feel like I'm being unclear a bit.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
(I'm just going to point out that using the word 'certain' makes you on Heg's camp hahah I'm arguing for most, he is mostly saying some)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
Games as education is definitely good and worthwhile, to a point.
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
(I'm admitting difficulties.)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
It suffers from very diminishing returns.
As a medium, inherently.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
How come?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
Games are hard to make at scale, essentially.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
There is a limit to complexity you can physically put into a game to make it 1) producable and 2) playable.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
you mean production cost? I agree, I handwaved this with FUTURE
(supposedly in the future, I mean)
right, but procutable means you're thinking about it being sold as videogame
I'm talking about selling it as teaching methods
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
okay, then just 'playable'
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
which is a really wide word I'd like to ask you to define/explain >_>(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
Either you end up with something like a Civilopedia, which is just a regular encyclopedia strapped tangentially onto a game.
Or it's something like a Paradox game, but much more mechanically complex.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
(I have actually lost some time to Civilopedia hahah)
to be clear, I'm not saying that it has to be actually playable
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
And if you've played EU4 at all, you know that the learning curve is almost vertical
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
like, you could say I'm not talking about games at all? but I wouldn't agree
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
I wish I could remember the name of this software I used as a kid to learn Hebrew. The fact that the only thing that stuck was the letters may or may not be besides the point here.(edited)
😛1
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:46 PM
Let's move away from civilopedia and the assasins creed examples
Imagine what a museum could do if you had built in AR(edited)
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
That's detached from games, though.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
but, it does have some overlapping features to games, so I'm happy to talk about it.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
Which is the part where I'd argue, but would that be a better teaching method instead of books most of the time?(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
Especially since I know 1 museum exhibit that did that.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:48 PM
Oh? Did you go?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:48 PM
There's a travelling one on the Vikings that creates a holographic version of Yggdrasil and Norse cosmology, which you can manipulate at will through a touchscreen.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
!!!
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
it was super cool.
It had an issue though: museum exhibits need to ferry a lot of people through it fairly quickly.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
ARE YOU SUFFOCATING FROM THE WEIGHT OF MY ENVY?
that must be incredible(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
I can't spend a half hour following every little bit of manipulation I could do there
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(Was this in Iceland? If so, I now have a reason to go.)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
oh, shite
(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(No, I think the exhibit's in Toronto right now)
I saw it in Chicago
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(... how much reason do you need to visit Iceland, assuming it's viable?)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
It was either Uppsala or Stockholm University that has most of the materials in the exhibit.
And to visit Iceland: Super-highly recommend. Live in Iceland: significantly less enthusiastic about.
😁1
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:51 PM
(I'll keep an eye out.)
👍1
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(Somewhat tangential, but: My parents went to iceland about a year and a half ago. Got a Mjolnir Keychain and a lot of genealogical information out of it.)
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(I'm from California. I don't do below 50 degrees Fahrenheit.)
(Cool.)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(So, if you're part icelantic, highly recommend it.)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
come in july? that's your best bet. But 50 is pretty close to the warmest we get.
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:53 PM
I'll add it to the list.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
(joju: then... don't come to brazil, I guess)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
so yeah, to return to the topic at hand, if that hologram was available at a school so a small class could spend some time running through it all visually, that would be incredible.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
(Random aside, does Brazil have a lot of spiders? Been hesitant to add anything south american to my list because of that.)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:55 PM
AHAHA
couldn't help but laugh out loud
I... think it has normal amount of spiders? I don't live anywhere near dense forest or something of the sort, but the one I told you about and you asked me no t to bring it up again was the biggest one I found
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:56 PM
(Okay, cool. Just a quick question, was all. Thanks!)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:56 PM
But even then, there is a problem. One of the professors here is doing very interesting work on the relation between the zodiac and Norse cosmology. There's no way to represent that, right now, in text. In 5-10 years, yeah we could. Comparative mythology at a planetarium/in VR would be a super cool thing to happen.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:57 PM
(If you do come to brazil, tho, hit me up and we'll go out for a beer. I'm somewhat close to são paulo and 4h ride from Rio, which is where most people tend to go unless you go to the norteast coastline)(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:57 PM
Why would it be feasible in VR or a planetarium but not, say, on a computer screen?
upvote1
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
... have you ever seen the night sky where there is no light pollution?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
Once, yes. It was quite something.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
this is promising
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:00 PM
So yeah, a computer screen is just too small. You can get out of the experience/mindset needed to draw that line of possible continuity to the past much too easily.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:00 PM
I would genuinely argue that's a problem of immersion, rather than feasability.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Sure. VR and planetariums naturally fix that problem.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Yeah, up above you talked about more interactivity being better, Mace, but I think it's related to how much it can cue your mind to pull you in
Also, since we're talking about VR, have you guys watched that Smarter Everyday Video about the haptic glove? www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2y4Z5IkZ0(edited)
YouTube
SmarterEveryDay
A Real Life Haptic Glove (Ready Player One Technology Today) - Sma...
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Virtually anything that's possible in VR or a planetarium are feasible on a computer screen. But they're not able to be as immersive.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
A computer screen could work. VR would work.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:02 PM
Yes, exactly.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:02 PM
(immersion! that's the word lol, had to go around it)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:03 PM
(That looks pretty cool, Vinico! I look forward to the day that immersive VR is widely-available and affordable.)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:04 PM
And yet, something completely different is needed to look at, say, the Broad Street Pump cholera epidemic in 'game' format than Nordic cosmology.
And getting the horror and panic and mystery of that event, and its significance, while still giving players agency over the world, would be somewhat difficult.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:06 PM
There's a certain degree of... Resolution, to all that? Like, we can already demonstrate the broad street pump cholera epidemic by way of, say, a detailed graph. It'd just take a bit of work to put together all the data.
But getting down on the ground level would be a much higher resolution, and as such much harder to do.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:06 PM
Yes there is, and tbh i'd love to see that bit tackled in a game. I just think it would be tricky.
And something that would be abjectly impossible would be, to pull from my current research, a game that tries to teach the global effects of the Tambora Eruption in 1815
That needs to be a book.
Alongside a series of maps.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:08 PM
There's a line somewhere between the theoretically possible, like the broad street epidemic, and the hypotheticallly possible. Something that could hypothetically be represented, but never will be due to feasability restrictions.
Theoretical is hard but possible. Hypothetical is hard but probably not possible.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:09 PM
Interestingly enough I also think about it as resolution. I wonder if that is how people talk about it, so it stuck to our minds?
Depends on what you mean by explain, Heg
and again, agency doesn't have to be that big for it to be considered a game in my books
and tbh, what better way to impress the horror, panic and misery from that kind of event than to remove agency?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:11 PM
In the game I imagined with that example, you'd be occupying the place of John Snow, the principal physician who found that story.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:12 PM
Oh, I'm not thinking about a specific storyline. What about jumping into different perspectives, wouldn't that be much better than a book?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:12 PM
see, I don't think so.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:13 PM
There is, on some level, a subtle difference between a game and a simulation. Simulations can be games and games can be simulations, they do overlap a great deal, but they are different things.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
because you physically can't portray how awful it is to die or to experience a loved one die of cholera, and attempting that, I think, would be somewhere between immersion-breaking and intellectually dishonest.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
Do you think that this distinction is important? I have admited that I'm using a very broad definition for game
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
I totally do think it's important!
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
I think the larger thing I'm trying to illustrate with these hypotheticals is that games are at their most powerful when they're treated not as textbook, but as literature. They need to draw an emotional connection from the player to and through the history, explaining how historians today think people thought in those days, and how they (not you, they) react to various events and stimuli.(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:15 PM
A simulation, in my mind at least, is concerned with emulating facets of reality as closely as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be using a realistic setting; Immersive Sim games are totally Simulations despite being games first and foremost.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
Dude, this might be the weed talking, but I think I could totally come up with a plausible way that someone might experience from various perspectives the global effects of the Tombora Eruption
I mean, have you played Flower?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
yeah.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
Games, on the other hand, are mostly concerned with interactivity. They don't have to be realistic, or react realistically, they just have to interact with the player in a (generally) consistent way.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:17 PM
Okay, then I'm mostly on the games side of the fence
While at the same time using a very broad definition of "game", I guess
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:19 PM
And vinicio, you probably could create a game that explores all of the consequences of Tambora through a series of vignettes, and it might even be a pretty cool game. The question is: is it better than the book that does the same thing? I think the answer there would have to be no.
(also, thank you guys so much for just having this conversation. I've been struggling over this exact issue for a couple weeks, and this has helped me sort out some things that I've been stuck on!)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:21 PM
(Again, there's a theroetical point of quality on the game's part where the book and the game are equivalent. All else being equal, a book is easier to make than a game.)
(Quality is one of those things that falls under "All else".)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:23 PM
How come you've been struggling with this? What do you mean? Also, do bring that kind of stuff up, me likes it
Anyway, theoretical conversation about the future of learning, games and books aside, I think there are games that are like essays?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
Oh sure, mace, but even assuming that the game popped into existence fully-formed, I still think it would be inferior to the book. Because a game can't jump around to asides and explanations of the relevant science and include excerpts from contemporary literature all at the same time.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
(it sure can!)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
I am... Totally disagreeing with you on that point. I think games can totally jump into asides and tangets and the like.
It just feels more jarring in games.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:26 PM
(and vinicio, I've been struggling with it because, as I indirectly mentioned, I actually am writing for a site, doing analysis on game narratives and history. And I've been trying to figure out a larger evaluative framework for 'historical games', which includes explaining the distaste I feel when EU4 is called 'historical' )
---
vinicio - Yesterday at 10:15 AM
The Begginer's Guide, YES, I actually had that in mind since the start of the conversation but got carried away before I could look it's name up
And while it would certainly be more adequate on general or idea-channel, and I'm glad you posted there, please don't worry too much about posting on the "right" channel, Ola. We like it because it makes easy to find it and makes stuff more organized, but we're not very prickly about it
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 10:30 AM
but yeah, I was thinking about that this morning, and realized a problem. if someone tries to use mechanics to support the larger argument of the 'essay', then you run a risk: the people who consume the essay aren't good enough at the game to get the point, or even finish the game.(edited)
The TNT Tiger - Yesterday at 10:36 AM
What if both the game and essay were about choice? Innuebdo studios did a video on Life is Strange and superposition, and he posits that the game is about the meaningless of our own decisions
And as the game's whole mechanics revolve around decisions, and there's not much reliant on skill, the theme and mechanics fit quite neatly
Or Undertale, and how violence begets more violence, and while pacifism may seem hard or unwanted at first, leads to a better outcome. There's more skill needed there, sure, but the how the skill you need to complete certain objectives scales is part of the message it tries to put across
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 10:58 AM
Yeah, that's an example. but, I don't know if you could describe those as an 'essay' of any sort, since it itself needs essays offering interpretations of it to gain that meaning.
Perhaps the best example of the 'essay' type of game is Spec Ops: the Line, but since I think the game is spectacularly flawed, I won't go farther with that example.
The TNT Tiger - Yesterday at 10:59 AM
Hmm yeah I think I might have misinterpreted what you meant. But I think a lesson could still be learnt in there
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 11:00 AM
oh definitely. I'm not arguing against games as media that is well-constructed and can really do interesting things into mechanics; that's simply true. i'm concerned about applying that ability to the commentary and the essay, and if/how that would actually work.
Parker - Yesterday at 1:02 PM
Is “Everything” a game essay?
I would argue that “Osmos” is a mechanical essay. It doesn’t explain all the analogies that could be made, but it could be a tool to do so.
--
Kel - Today at 1:11 AM
@parker I wouldn't necessarily describe Everything as a "Game Essay", as its more of an adaption of Watt's philosophy into mechanics, and isnt really "about Watt's philosophy" as it is "trying to emobody Watt's philosophy." I think a better example of something that could be called a "Game essay" would be Getting Over It With Bennett Foddy" as it feels like it (moreso than Everything) has something to say.
vinicio - Today at 1:12 AM
Hah! I was wondering if I should have pinged you for that conversation
Kel - Today at 1:12 AM
Man, as the resident game designer, I really wish I had been in here. Gotta lotta reading on the back log to do
vinicio - Today at 1:13 AM
Dang it, I knew I should have. Anyway, eager to see what you've got to say
That said :demicolon: I'm considering vlogging
I was trying to find a californication clip where charlie asks hank to blowg and he says it all mumbled, but I give up
I'm looking into mikes, apparently the budget ones cost $100. Is the world crazy or am I?
Oriana - Today at 1:20 AM
I know jack shit here
WTF is Everything and what does Watt have to do with it and is it the Watt I'm thinking of?
Kel - Today at 1:21 AM
I think the big problem we have with this "Games as essays" question is a lack of attempts. While I may be able to dig up some burried b-rated indie games that have done it, there are very few games that try to deliver a point without doing so through fiction.
Getting Over It is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that is trying to make a point, blatantly and outright. Hell it's basically got a thesis statement at the beginning.
I think Parker was pretty close with Everything, because Everything doesn't create a fiction to get to its purpose, and I think if it were more analytical or critical of Watt's philosophy, I would be more inclined to think of it as an Essay. One could argue that it is an explanatory essay, explaining Watt's philosophy, but to me its more of an adaption
Here
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpzd-5sSYj4
YouTube
Errant Signal
Everything
That video is a REALLY good way to know what Everything is all about
Oriana - Today at 1:21 AM
...isn't... all of the bioshocks... an example?
Kel - Today at 1:23 AM
I would say that Bioshock has the fiction problem
Oriana - Today at 1:23 AM
wait
I'm confused
Why is that a problem for an essay? Gatsby was basically an essay in disguise
Kel - Today at 1:24 AM
it is not a game that, as itself or as the author "a thing to say", but is a story which is supposed to carry a message. You wouldnt call Bladerunner a video essay.
Oriana - Today at 1:24 AM
hmmmm
See, I wouldn't call Bladerunner a video essay... but I might call Who Framed Roger Rabbit one?
I would definitely call The Great Gatsby one.
vinicio - Today at 1:26 AM
So, right, Kel. I've been trying to see how something like this could be viable, and I've considered how sometimes people do game analysis with just the game playing on the background, without any real relevance besides being the topic of conversation
Oriana - Today at 1:27 AM
Would Socrates Jones be the kind of thing we can call a little philosophy textbook?
vinicio - Today at 1:27 AM
And I've thought about having, like, a youtube channel where I would upload videos where I narrate some sort of essay while playing that game, but somehow relating gameplay to content
So people could chose between just watching the youtuber play or playing and listening, or some sort of interaction? I dunno, I'm mostly throwing stuff around(edited)
Oriana - Today at 1:27 AM
oh
different Watt
Watts
vinicio - Today at 1:28 AM
Ori, how are you defining that, what would you say factors in your decision for those movies to be categorized as video essay, in your mind? It's late and my memory is shitty enough that you'll have to explain it to me without requiring that I remember much about those titles(edited)
Kel - Today at 1:30 AM
So, at least in the defenition I have in my head, Essays are very closely tied to authorship. Like, I wouldn't call the great gatsby an essay, because the great gatsby is not "aware" that it is written. Its the same reason I think F for Fake is a good example of a film essay
youtu.be/IXTIxPeaASM?t=132
YouTube
yahiamuhammad
F for fake [1973] - Beginning and introduction
Oriana - Today at 1:30 AM
huh
I have... never thought of that as that
vinicio - Today at 1:31 AM
hmm I sort of agree. It's deliberate, then?
Kel - Today at 1:32 AM
Like, video essays are aware they are videos, they are, blatantly, giving you an argument. Whereas something like the great gatsby is, very obviously carrying a message, it is not outright with it. It is not self aware of its context.
Yeah thats a good way of putting it kinda. Its deliberate, and lacking of diegesis.
Oriana - Today at 1:32 AM
to me, an essay is just kind of... an attempt at exploring an idea very clearly, with a "beginning, middle and end" in the way of introduction, explanation and conclusion, which... like... says something about something. I would call the Great Gatsby an essay because the great gatsby is basically one long rumination on the wastefulness of the upper class in the 20s as people were dying, the rise of advertising as a controlling force in people's lives, and the way that... like, society sucks?
and it does... that.
It literally begins with an introduction
"I think xyz about such and such thing and this implies this and this thing"
and then it has a bunch of supporting arguments
and then it has a conclusion ("no, Gatsby was alright in the end, it was what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust fell upon the wake of his dream")
Kel - Today at 1:33 AM
Is that introduction diagetic? Its been a while since I've read it.
Oriana - Today at 1:33 AM
where the author basically goes "the American Dream is not the problem, assholes are."
it's intradiegetic yeah
like, the book starts with
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.
“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”
He didn’t say any more, but we’ve always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person, and so it came about that in college I was unjustly accused of being a politician, because I was privy to the secret griefs of wild, unknown men.
which is basically a rich asshole saying "I don't judge people, even when they suck"
and it's kind of hilarious
but like, the point is that it begins with a kind of introduction to some ideas
and then there's other stuff that happens with breaks for ideas
Kel - Today at 1:36 AM
I guess one of the defining features for me of an essay is: lacking diegesis. I think thats why The Begginers Guide feels like an essay at first, because it appears to be without a 4th wall, there is no diegesis, and it is not until later that you understand that there actually is one.(edited)
Oriana - Today at 1:37 AM
hmmmmm
that's really interesting
I have never considered the idea of a diegesis in an essay
I think it may be because of the kinds of essays I read
I read a lot of philosophy essays
vinicio - Today at 1:37 AM
That's an excelent point, Kel
Oriana - Today at 1:37 AM
and they kind of go, like, "let us assume X"
and so for the purposes of the essay, there is a world where X is just the case(edited)
so that's kind of like a diegesis...
Here's a quote from that article that got me thinking about the nature of progress and the establishment of the technological status quo.
Victor has long been convinced that scientists haven’t yet taken full advantage of the computer. “It’s not that different than looking at the printing press, and the evolution of the book,” he said. After Gutenberg, the printing press was mostly used to mimic the calligraphy in bibles. It took nearly 100 years of technical and conceptual improvements to invent the modern book. “There was this entire period where they had the new technology of printing, but they were just using it to emulate the old media.”
So I've been thinking about all the things we keep using just because, well, people specialized in it. And that paved the way for more people to do that, since it was a proved viable option, and markets and ways of living formed out of it. Repeat. How do we know when those things are there just because of that inertia?
Then I realized that I'm going to be 30 next month and with that came some lessons about removing a fence before I know what it's keeping away. Like, you know, media being the message. Like excessive smart phone use causing ADHD like symptoms (according to this). While ideally you'd like to know beforehand how the house is like before moving into it, as Kierkegaard said, this sort of thing can only be understood backwards. We don't have a way to understand what is happening before it reaches significant mass, and then it's really hard to notice it because we are used to it.
This is starting to seem like a an old man shouting at clouds thing, it might be that I took a wrong turn somewhere, but I'll leave it here anyway
maybe someone can save it.vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:26 PM
so, anyway, I've been thinking about video-games being an incredibly powerful media for storytelling, I feel like it would probably be defaulted to if it wasn't much more difficult than writing an essay or recording a video
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:26 PM
What do you mean by "defaulted to it"?
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:27 PM
and then the other day I was... relaxing and I thought "I wonder if you could develop a system to create video-game essays in some sort of streamlined/viable way"
Do any of you know if this is a thing people have done?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:27 PM
Like, if video games were as easy to make as, say, normal videos. People would default to making video games?(edited)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:28 PM
re: defaulted to:
Think kids learning about history. What is better, watching a video or going to a museum? Or reading a paper? Think kids in the future learning about history: Videogames.
not exclusively, mind you, I'm not that kind of crazy, but it makes sense, doesn't it?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:28 PM
All else being equal, more interactivity is better ?
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
For learning/storytelling, yeah, I think so
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
I'd argue that's kind of a given, on some level. In reality though, "All else" is rarely, if ever, equal.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:29 PM
yeah, for sure
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:30 PM
Like... A video game that will last (on average) ten hours is a whole lot harder to make than a book that might last ten hours.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:31 PM
right, which is what I was trying to hand wave with futurium
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:32 PM
Same for film, or music, or musical/dancing theater... Effort put in is rarely equivalent across formats to entertainment value.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:33 PM
Well, yeah, but that changes with time. Couple of months ago I was watching to the videos of when my family first got it's camera and you can listen to me (nowadays adorably but then probably incredibly annoyingly (yyy)) asking for the camera, and sometimes you can see the tip of my fingers as I jumped to reach into the field of view
If I was born a couple of years later I would have a video camera and much better editing software (which I wouldn't be any good at that age, but you get my point)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
I think what medium is best really, really depends on the level of depth to which you're trying to go. On a gen ed level, games can be super cool. As we get more and more advanced, it's gonna be hard to talk about a thing through a game.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:34 PM
Yeah!
Like... The invention of film didn't invalidate books. And video games didn't invalidate film.
quote1
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
like, small-level, but highly significant, variation is not gonna be able to be talked about in a game (using history since this is actually and literally something I do)
because of the way assets and textures work.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
what do you mean by variation?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
^
IdeaBOT - Last Thursday at 9:35 PM
Macecurb
Like... The invention of film didn't invalidate books. And video games didn't invalidate film.
#lounge-1 of Idea Project
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:36 PM
That's not what I'm trying to say, tho
I'm just saying that now more people are making videos to each other than they are writing letters(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:36 PM
So, like, an analysis of types of crosses carved into Irish cave walls... doesn't work in a game. That's just too nuanced.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:37 PM
How is it taught nowadays? (jesus, I hate those words)(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:37 PM
I would actually argue against that. Have you heard at all of Assassin's Creed Origins Discovery Mode?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:38 PM
Yes. but. Every single building with writing on it has the same writing on it.
because there is a 'writing' texture(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:39 PM
But. And I would truly argue this is meaningful. There is very little stopping the programmers from displaying different, varying time periods of the (in-game) pyramids.
They chose to display a certain time period of the pyramids, yes.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:39 PM
Which is what they would do if the point was actually teaching, instead of, you know, making more money with as little as possible(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
yeah, while the text is actually Middle Egyptian, that text isn't going to apply everywhere. And unless you're custom texturing every object that's inevitable.
And they fudge distances and materials somewhat regularly in AC: Origins to make the game playable.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
I don't think you're using enough futurium in your reasoning, Heg
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:40 PM
As someone who once tried to reenact European History in Civilization VI, I think it's definitely plausible to teach certain subjects through video games.
That being said, it would require dedication and detailed work.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
i feel like I'm being unclear a bit.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
(I'm just going to point out that using the word 'certain' makes you on Heg's camp hahah I'm arguing for most, he is mostly saying some)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
Games as education is definitely good and worthwhile, to a point.
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:41 PM
(I'm admitting difficulties.)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
It suffers from very diminishing returns.
As a medium, inherently.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
How come?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
Games are hard to make at scale, essentially.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
There is a limit to complexity you can physically put into a game to make it 1) producable and 2) playable.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:42 PM
you mean production cost? I agree, I handwaved this with FUTURE
(supposedly in the future, I mean)
right, but procutable means you're thinking about it being sold as videogame
I'm talking about selling it as teaching methods
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:43 PM
okay, then just 'playable'
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
which is a really wide word I'd like to ask you to define/explain >_>(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:44 PM
Either you end up with something like a Civilopedia, which is just a regular encyclopedia strapped tangentially onto a game.
Or it's something like a Paradox game, but much more mechanically complex.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
(I have actually lost some time to Civilopedia hahah)
to be clear, I'm not saying that it has to be actually playable
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
And if you've played EU4 at all, you know that the learning curve is almost vertical
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
like, you could say I'm not talking about games at all? but I wouldn't agree
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:45 PM
I wish I could remember the name of this software I used as a kid to learn Hebrew. The fact that the only thing that stuck was the letters may or may not be besides the point here.(edited)
😛1
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:46 PM
Let's move away from civilopedia and the assasins creed examples
Imagine what a museum could do if you had built in AR(edited)
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
That's detached from games, though.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
but, it does have some overlapping features to games, so I'm happy to talk about it.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
Which is the part where I'd argue, but would that be a better teaching method instead of books most of the time?(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:47 PM
Especially since I know 1 museum exhibit that did that.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:48 PM
Oh? Did you go?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:48 PM
There's a travelling one on the Vikings that creates a holographic version of Yggdrasil and Norse cosmology, which you can manipulate at will through a touchscreen.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
!!!
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
it was super cool.
It had an issue though: museum exhibits need to ferry a lot of people through it fairly quickly.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
ARE YOU SUFFOCATING FROM THE WEIGHT OF MY ENVY?
that must be incredible(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:49 PM
I can't spend a half hour following every little bit of manipulation I could do there
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(Was this in Iceland? If so, I now have a reason to go.)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
oh, shite
(edited)MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(No, I think the exhibit's in Toronto right now)
I saw it in Chicago
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
(... how much reason do you need to visit Iceland, assuming it's viable?)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:50 PM
It was either Uppsala or Stockholm University that has most of the materials in the exhibit.
And to visit Iceland: Super-highly recommend. Live in Iceland: significantly less enthusiastic about.
😁1
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:51 PM
(I'll keep an eye out.)
👍1
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(Somewhat tangential, but: My parents went to iceland about a year and a half ago. Got a Mjolnir Keychain and a lot of genealogical information out of it.)
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(I'm from California. I don't do below 50 degrees Fahrenheit.)
(Cool.)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
(So, if you're part icelantic, highly recommend it.)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:52 PM
come in july? that's your best bet. But 50 is pretty close to the warmest we get.
joju997 - Last Thursday at 9:53 PM
I'll add it to the list.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
(joju: then... don't come to brazil, I guess
)MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
so yeah, to return to the topic at hand, if that hologram was available at a school so a small class could spend some time running through it all visually, that would be incredible.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:54 PM
(Random aside, does Brazil have a lot of spiders? Been hesitant to add anything south american to my list because of that.)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:55 PM
AHAHA
couldn't help but laugh out loud
I... think it has normal amount of spiders? I don't live anywhere near dense forest or something of the sort, but the one I told you about and you asked me no t to bring it up again was the biggest one I found
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:56 PM
(Okay, cool. Just a quick question, was all. Thanks!)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:56 PM
But even then, there is a problem. One of the professors here is doing very interesting work on the relation between the zodiac and Norse cosmology. There's no way to represent that, right now, in text. In 5-10 years, yeah we could. Comparative mythology at a planetarium/in VR would be a super cool thing to happen.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:57 PM
(If you do come to brazil, tho, hit me up and we'll go out for a beer. I'm somewhat close to são paulo and 4h ride from Rio, which is where most people tend to go unless you go to the norteast coastline)(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:57 PM
Why would it be feasible in VR or a planetarium but not, say, on a computer screen?
upvote1
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
... have you ever seen the night sky where there is no light pollution?
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
Once, yes. It was quite something.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 9:58 PM
this is promising
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:00 PM
So yeah, a computer screen is just too small. You can get out of the experience/mindset needed to draw that line of possible continuity to the past much too easily.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:00 PM
I would genuinely argue that's a problem of immersion, rather than feasability.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Sure. VR and planetariums naturally fix that problem.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Yeah, up above you talked about more interactivity being better, Mace, but I think it's related to how much it can cue your mind to pull you in
Also, since we're talking about VR, have you guys watched that Smarter Everyday Video about the haptic glove? www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2y4Z5IkZ0(edited)
YouTube
SmarterEveryDay
A Real Life Haptic Glove (Ready Player One Technology Today) - Sma...
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
Virtually anything that's possible in VR or a planetarium are feasible on a computer screen. But they're not able to be as immersive.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:01 PM
A computer screen could work. VR would work.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:02 PM
Yes, exactly.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:02 PM
(immersion! that's the word lol, had to go around it)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:03 PM
(That looks pretty cool, Vinico! I look forward to the day that immersive VR is widely-available and affordable.)(edited)
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:04 PM
And yet, something completely different is needed to look at, say, the Broad Street Pump cholera epidemic in 'game' format than Nordic cosmology.
And getting the horror and panic and mystery of that event, and its significance, while still giving players agency over the world, would be somewhat difficult.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:06 PM
There's a certain degree of... Resolution, to all that? Like, we can already demonstrate the broad street pump cholera epidemic by way of, say, a detailed graph. It'd just take a bit of work to put together all the data.
But getting down on the ground level would be a much higher resolution, and as such much harder to do.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:06 PM
Yes there is, and tbh i'd love to see that bit tackled in a game. I just think it would be tricky.
And something that would be abjectly impossible would be, to pull from my current research, a game that tries to teach the global effects of the Tambora Eruption in 1815
That needs to be a book.
Alongside a series of maps.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:08 PM
There's a line somewhere between the theoretically possible, like the broad street epidemic, and the hypotheticallly possible. Something that could hypothetically be represented, but never will be due to feasability restrictions.
Theoretical is hard but possible. Hypothetical is hard but probably not possible.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:09 PM
Interestingly enough I also think about it as resolution. I wonder if that is how people talk about it, so it stuck to our minds?
Depends on what you mean by explain, Heg
and again, agency doesn't have to be that big for it to be considered a game in my books
and tbh, what better way to impress the horror, panic and misery from that kind of event than to remove agency?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:11 PM
In the game I imagined with that example, you'd be occupying the place of John Snow, the principal physician who found that story.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:12 PM
Oh, I'm not thinking about a specific storyline. What about jumping into different perspectives, wouldn't that be much better than a book?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:12 PM
see, I don't think so.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:13 PM
There is, on some level, a subtle difference between a game and a simulation. Simulations can be games and games can be simulations, they do overlap a great deal, but they are different things.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
because you physically can't portray how awful it is to die or to experience a loved one die of cholera, and attempting that, I think, would be somewhere between immersion-breaking and intellectually dishonest.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
Do you think that this distinction is important? I have admited that I'm using a very broad definition for game
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
I totally do think it's important!
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:14 PM
I think the larger thing I'm trying to illustrate with these hypotheticals is that games are at their most powerful when they're treated not as textbook, but as literature. They need to draw an emotional connection from the player to and through the history, explaining how historians today think people thought in those days, and how they (not you, they) react to various events and stimuli.(edited)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:15 PM
A simulation, in my mind at least, is concerned with emulating facets of reality as closely as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be using a realistic setting; Immersive Sim games are totally Simulations despite being games first and foremost.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
Dude, this might be the weed talking, but I think I could totally come up with a plausible way that someone might experience from various perspectives the global effects of the Tombora Eruption
I mean, have you played Flower?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
yeah.
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:16 PM
Games, on the other hand, are mostly concerned with interactivity. They don't have to be realistic, or react realistically, they just have to interact with the player in a (generally) consistent way.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:17 PM
Okay, then I'm mostly on the games side of the fence
While at the same time using a very broad definition of "game", I guess
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:19 PM
And vinicio, you probably could create a game that explores all of the consequences of Tambora through a series of vignettes, and it might even be a pretty cool game. The question is: is it better than the book that does the same thing? I think the answer there would have to be no.
(also, thank you guys so much for just having this conversation. I've been struggling over this exact issue for a couple weeks, and this has helped me sort out some things that I've been stuck on!)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:21 PM
(Again, there's a theroetical point of quality on the game's part where the book and the game are equivalent. All else being equal, a book is easier to make than a game.)
(Quality is one of those things that falls under "All else".)
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:23 PM
How come you've been struggling with this? What do you mean? Also, do bring that kind of stuff up, me likes it
Anyway, theoretical conversation about the future of learning, games and books aside, I think there are games that are like essays?
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
Oh sure, mace, but even assuming that the game popped into existence fully-formed, I still think it would be inferior to the book. Because a game can't jump around to asides and explanations of the relevant science and include excerpts from contemporary literature all at the same time.
vinicio - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
(it sure can!)
Macecurb - Last Thursday at 10:24 PM
I am... Totally disagreeing with you on that point. I think games can totally jump into asides and tangets and the like.
It just feels more jarring in games.
MightyHegemol - Last Thursday at 10:26 PM
(and vinicio, I've been struggling with it because, as I indirectly mentioned, I actually am writing for a site, doing analysis on game narratives and history. And I've been trying to figure out a larger evaluative framework for 'historical games', which includes explaining the distaste I feel when EU4 is called 'historical' )
---
vinicio - Yesterday at 10:15 AM
The Begginer's Guide, YES, I actually had that in mind since the start of the conversation but got carried away before I could look it's name up
And while it would certainly be more adequate on general or idea-channel, and I'm glad you posted there, please don't worry too much about posting on the "right" channel, Ola. We like it because it makes easy to find it and makes stuff more organized, but we're not very prickly about it
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 10:30 AM
but yeah, I was thinking about that this morning, and realized a problem. if someone tries to use mechanics to support the larger argument of the 'essay', then you run a risk: the people who consume the essay aren't good enough at the game to get the point, or even finish the game.(edited)
The TNT Tiger - Yesterday at 10:36 AM
What if both the game and essay were about choice? Innuebdo studios did a video on Life is Strange and superposition, and he posits that the game is about the meaningless of our own decisions
And as the game's whole mechanics revolve around decisions, and there's not much reliant on skill, the theme and mechanics fit quite neatly
Or Undertale, and how violence begets more violence, and while pacifism may seem hard or unwanted at first, leads to a better outcome. There's more skill needed there, sure, but the how the skill you need to complete certain objectives scales is part of the message it tries to put across
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 10:58 AM
Yeah, that's an example. but, I don't know if you could describe those as an 'essay' of any sort, since it itself needs essays offering interpretations of it to gain that meaning.
Perhaps the best example of the 'essay' type of game is Spec Ops: the Line, but since I think the game is spectacularly flawed, I won't go farther with that example.
The TNT Tiger - Yesterday at 10:59 AM
Hmm yeah I think I might have misinterpreted what you meant. But I think a lesson could still be learnt in there
MightyHegemol - Yesterday at 11:00 AM
oh definitely. I'm not arguing against games as media that is well-constructed and can really do interesting things into mechanics; that's simply true. i'm concerned about applying that ability to the commentary and the essay, and if/how that would actually work.
Parker - Yesterday at 1:02 PM
Is “Everything” a game essay?
I would argue that “Osmos” is a mechanical essay. It doesn’t explain all the analogies that could be made, but it could be a tool to do so.
--
Kel - Today at 1:11 AM
@parker I wouldn't necessarily describe Everything as a "Game Essay", as its more of an adaption of Watt's philosophy into mechanics, and isnt really "about Watt's philosophy" as it is "trying to emobody Watt's philosophy." I think a better example of something that could be called a "Game essay" would be Getting Over It With Bennett Foddy" as it feels like it (moreso than Everything) has something to say.
vinicio - Today at 1:12 AM
Hah! I was wondering if I should have pinged you for that conversation
Kel - Today at 1:12 AM
Man, as the resident game designer, I really wish I had been in here. Gotta lotta reading on the back log to do
vinicio - Today at 1:13 AM
Dang it, I knew I should have. Anyway, eager to see what you've got to say
That said :demicolon: I'm considering vlogging
I was trying to find a californication clip where charlie asks hank to blowg and he says it all mumbled, but I give up
I'm looking into mikes, apparently the budget ones cost $100. Is the world crazy or am I?
Oriana - Today at 1:20 AM
I know jack shit here
WTF is Everything and what does Watt have to do with it and is it the Watt I'm thinking of?
Kel - Today at 1:21 AM
I think the big problem we have with this "Games as essays" question is a lack of attempts. While I may be able to dig up some burried b-rated indie games that have done it, there are very few games that try to deliver a point without doing so through fiction.
Getting Over It is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that is trying to make a point, blatantly and outright. Hell it's basically got a thesis statement at the beginning.
I think Parker was pretty close with Everything, because Everything doesn't create a fiction to get to its purpose, and I think if it were more analytical or critical of Watt's philosophy, I would be more inclined to think of it as an Essay. One could argue that it is an explanatory essay, explaining Watt's philosophy, but to me its more of an adaption
Here
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpzd-5sSYj4
YouTube
Errant Signal
Everything
That video is a REALLY good way to know what Everything is all about
Oriana - Today at 1:21 AM
...isn't... all of the bioshocks... an example?
Kel - Today at 1:23 AM
I would say that Bioshock has the fiction problem
Oriana - Today at 1:23 AM
wait
I'm confused
Why is that a problem for an essay? Gatsby was basically an essay in disguise
Kel - Today at 1:24 AM
it is not a game that, as itself or as the author "a thing to say", but is a story which is supposed to carry a message. You wouldnt call Bladerunner a video essay.
Oriana - Today at 1:24 AM
hmmmm
See, I wouldn't call Bladerunner a video essay... but I might call Who Framed Roger Rabbit one?
I would definitely call The Great Gatsby one.
vinicio - Today at 1:26 AM
So, right, Kel. I've been trying to see how something like this could be viable, and I've considered how sometimes people do game analysis with just the game playing on the background, without any real relevance besides being the topic of conversation
Oriana - Today at 1:27 AM
Would Socrates Jones be the kind of thing we can call a little philosophy textbook?
vinicio - Today at 1:27 AM
And I've thought about having, like, a youtube channel where I would upload videos where I narrate some sort of essay while playing that game, but somehow relating gameplay to content
So people could chose between just watching the youtuber play or playing and listening, or some sort of interaction? I dunno, I'm mostly throwing stuff around(edited)
Oriana - Today at 1:27 AM
oh
different Watt
Watts
vinicio - Today at 1:28 AM
Ori, how are you defining that, what would you say factors in your decision for those movies to be categorized as video essay, in your mind? It's late and my memory is shitty enough that you'll have to explain it to me without requiring that I remember much about those titles(edited)
Kel - Today at 1:30 AM
So, at least in the defenition I have in my head, Essays are very closely tied to authorship. Like, I wouldn't call the great gatsby an essay, because the great gatsby is not "aware" that it is written. Its the same reason I think F for Fake is a good example of a film essay
youtu.be/IXTIxPeaASM?t=132
YouTube
yahiamuhammad
F for fake [1973] - Beginning and introduction
Oriana - Today at 1:30 AM
huh
I have... never thought of that as that
vinicio - Today at 1:31 AM
hmm I sort of agree. It's deliberate, then?
Kel - Today at 1:32 AM
Like, video essays are aware they are videos, they are, blatantly, giving you an argument. Whereas something like the great gatsby is, very obviously carrying a message, it is not outright with it. It is not self aware of its context.
Yeah thats a good way of putting it kinda. Its deliberate, and lacking of diegesis.
Oriana - Today at 1:32 AM
to me, an essay is just kind of... an attempt at exploring an idea very clearly, with a "beginning, middle and end" in the way of introduction, explanation and conclusion, which... like... says something about something. I would call the Great Gatsby an essay because the great gatsby is basically one long rumination on the wastefulness of the upper class in the 20s as people were dying, the rise of advertising as a controlling force in people's lives, and the way that... like, society sucks?
and it does... that.
It literally begins with an introduction
"I think xyz about such and such thing and this implies this and this thing"
and then it has a bunch of supporting arguments
and then it has a conclusion ("no, Gatsby was alright in the end, it was what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust fell upon the wake of his dream")
Kel - Today at 1:33 AM
Is that introduction diagetic? Its been a while since I've read it.
Oriana - Today at 1:33 AM
where the author basically goes "the American Dream is not the problem, assholes are."
it's intradiegetic yeah
like, the book starts with
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.
“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”
He didn’t say any more, but we’ve always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person, and so it came about that in college I was unjustly accused of being a politician, because I was privy to the secret griefs of wild, unknown men.
which is basically a rich asshole saying "I don't judge people, even when they suck"
and it's kind of hilarious
but like, the point is that it begins with a kind of introduction to some ideas
and then there's other stuff that happens with breaks for ideas
Kel - Today at 1:36 AM
I guess one of the defining features for me of an essay is: lacking diegesis. I think thats why The Begginers Guide feels like an essay at first, because it appears to be without a 4th wall, there is no diegesis, and it is not until later that you understand that there actually is one.(edited)
Oriana - Today at 1:37 AM
hmmmmm
that's really interesting
I have never considered the idea of a diegesis in an essay
I think it may be because of the kinds of essays I read
I read a lot of philosophy essays
vinicio - Today at 1:37 AM
That's an excelent point, Kel
Oriana - Today at 1:37 AM
and they kind of go, like, "let us assume X"
and so for the purposes of the essay, there is a world where X is just the case(edited)
so that's kind of like a diegesis...
